Posts by Doug Mason

29

What is your understanding of the terms "Ransom" and "Redeem"?

by Doug Mason in

with respect to christ being the "redeemer" and of having "paid the ransom", i would like to know:.

(1) what is your technical understanding of each term?.

(2) what is the watchtower's understanding of each term?.

Doug Mason

As I wrote, I created that diagram without having sought any scholarship in support. I started with "death" because in my mind I imagined Humans and others such as the Neanderthals, living hundreds of thousands of years ago, grieving over the deaths of their loved ones, whether through illness, attacks from wild beasts, or from enemies. Archaeological evidences reveal the care they took with the remains of the departed. This sense of grief is not confined to us as a species.

In my diagram, I made the hypothetical assumption that grief evolved into a hope, which then developed into the idea of a spirit world (often seeing the world of nature manifesting actions by the spirits). The nature of this spirit world reflected the hierarchical structure of their communities, with an upper echelon of super powers, the gods.

I then imagine that over time, questions arose regarding ethics, morality and so on, and in the process this created the concept of sin, along with the consequent necessity to address it. One such resoluton is theodicity. Another outcome for Christians was to provide a reason for Jesus' death, which they did by believing that the Adam story is truth.

As I research the views of the formative church, today I came across the following, which supports my hypothesis that the narrative began with Death but that the Church later reversed this to say that the story began with Sin.

Doug

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"The crucial question of origin for the Hebrew writers and earliest Christian writers was more about the origin of death than of sin. Why are human beings created only to face death? Why is the created order, a product of divine goodness, the source of tragedy and suffering? These dilemmas invite a theodicy, an explanation of how God is powerful, good, and loving and yet there is evil. Death faces humankind as an evil. To attribute to sin the introduction of death into the created order places the blame for such evil on the side of humans, not God. By their rejection of God’s will, it was argued in both the Hebrew and Christian traditions, human beings brought death into a world where it had been absent. Death is the punishment for sin." (Original Sin, Wiley, page 53)

29

What is your understanding of the terms "Ransom" and "Redeem"?

by Doug Mason in

with respect to christ being the "redeemer" and of having "paid the ransom", i would like to know:.

(1) what is your technical understanding of each term?.

(2) what is the watchtower's understanding of each term?.

Doug Mason

Hi,

I wonder if I am correct in saying that everything I and you have said on this Thread is speculation and that this is based on opinion and superstition?

If that is even grudgngly admitted, I would like to offer my Model. Without any basis from scholarship or other resources, I have created a Model based on my speculative opinion that "Sin" is the outcome of "Death".

Here is my simplistic Model.

Doug

29

What is your understanding of the terms "Ransom" and "Redeem"?

by Doug Mason in

with respect to christ being the "redeemer" and of having "paid the ransom", i would like to know:.

(1) what is your technical understanding of each term?.

(2) what is the watchtower's understanding of each term?.

Doug Mason

Vidqun,

I hope you appreciate why you were provided with only part of the passage from Keil And Delitzsch.

Doug

29

What is your understanding of the terms "Ransom" and "Redeem"?

by Doug Mason in

with respect to christ being the "redeemer" and of having "paid the ransom", i would like to know:.

(1) what is your technical understanding of each term?.

(2) what is the watchtower's understanding of each term?.

Doug Mason

David Jay,

I appreciate your insights.

As you point out, many Christians view salvation in terms of a judicial, legal model. It is my understanding that this Model does not hold for the Orthodox Churches.

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Yes, while Jesus was a Jew, as were all of the writers, the theories that are bandied about today were drawn up while the gentile Christians marked an increasingly separate pathway from the Jews and incorporated their philosophies and philosophical modes of thinking.

We can, however, identify places in Paul's writings, himself a jew, where he incorporates contemporary Greek ideas.

It is so ironic that Christianity employs Jewish writings and worships a Jew.

---------------------------------

Be proud that you are a Jew. My dad's father was named Abraham; his father was Mosche (Moses); and his father was Yitzhak (Isaac). I never knew any of them but going by their names and by the record of Grandfather Abraham's life, I am certain they were good religious Jews. On the other hand, my maternal grandparents were way out atheist, secular Jews.

The Nazis were not interested in such differences.

No, I have absolutely no experience with Judaism.

Doug

29

What is your understanding of the terms "Ransom" and "Redeem"?

by Doug Mason in

with respect to christ being the "redeemer" and of having "paid the ransom", i would like to know:.

(1) what is your technical understanding of each term?.

(2) what is the watchtower's understanding of each term?.

Doug Mason

Sykvia,

I enjoy your open thinking.

I balk at the idea that Jesus pre-existed. I have problems conceiving that a "spirit being" could enter into Mary's fertilised egg. I have problems understanding what emerged from Mary. Did Jesus have a spirit living inside him? Was he only an apparent human? What and who died?

If Jesus were to slip into town, what would he think of Christianity?

Doug

29

What is your understanding of the terms "Ransom" and "Redeem"?

by Doug Mason in

with respect to christ being the "redeemer" and of having "paid the ransom", i would like to know:.

(1) what is your technical understanding of each term?.

(2) what is the watchtower's understanding of each term?.

Doug Mason

Thanks for your thoughts, which I am taking on board.

I suppose that even though the subject of "Ransom" is fundamental to the Watchtower, for the majority of JWs it becomes a non-issue, since the WTS limits the term and its benefits to its "144,000 Anointed" (Christs).

As I go back over your posts, I gain the idea that you see "Ransom" and "Redeeem" in terms of the cosmic stage (Adam, creation, etc.) and not in terms of any personal meaning.

Do people thus hold to the idea of "Original Sin" and that this is what Jesus' death addressed?

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If I want to "redeem" something from a pawnbroker, my payment to him releases my possession and I re-own it. If someone is kidnapped and held for ransom, then I pay ransom money to the person holding the captive. If these were valid models, they would suggest to me that Satan is the recipient of the payment. Of course we are spealing here of a different culture at a different time, so what did these terms mean to them?

I suggest that Paul is relevant here, inasmuch as he conflated varying Hebraic streams and then mixed into them contemporary Greek concepts. I am, however, ignorant of their ideas, but Paul was aware and was affected by them.

Greek philosophy had an even greater influence on the later Church Fathers as they tried to come to grips with the loose ends left by Paul.

So if Christ's death and resurrection has any personal meaning, what is it? Why did God have to employ Judas, the priests and the Romans before he is able to love and forgive?

Doug

29

What is your understanding of the terms "Ransom" and "Redeem"?

by Doug Mason in

with respect to christ being the "redeemer" and of having "paid the ransom", i would like to know:.

(1) what is your technical understanding of each term?.

(2) what is the watchtower's understanding of each term?.

Doug Mason

Hi Sylvia,

I presume by "I do not believe this teaching" that you are confining that comment to the Watchtower's attitude concerning Adam and Eve.

While I appreciate your poetry, it does not address my question, inasmuch it simply asserts that: "He paid the price with his own life". To whom was the payment made? If God demanded it, what does that say about God?

I hesitatingly suggest that your understanding is known as "The Penal-substitution Theory", also as the Judicial (Juridical) Model of salvation. This idea is derived from Bishop Anselm of the 11th century which was then modified during the Reformation.

This judicial model is typical of the Catholic/Protestant tradition and I suggest that your Orthodox friends (Greek - Russian, etc. - the Eastern Churches) could find that idea strange.

For a description of the various Atonement models:

http://www.theopedia.com/atonement-of-christ

Doug

29

What is your understanding of the terms "Ransom" and "Redeem"?

by Doug Mason in

with respect to christ being the "redeemer" and of having "paid the ransom", i would like to know:.

(1) what is your technical understanding of each term?.

(2) what is the watchtower's understanding of each term?.

Doug Mason

Vidqun,

Thank you for that source, which I managed to locate. The context of your first citation continues with the following, to which your final sentence refers.

Doug

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The first expression of this group, or the fourth in the whole number, is “to bring in everlasting righteousness.” After the entire setting aside of sin must come a righteousness which shall never cease. That [Hebrew text] does not mean “happiness of the olden time” (Bertholdt, Rösch), nor “innocence of the former better times” (J. D. Michaelis), but “righteousness,” requires at present no further proof. Righteousness comes from heaven as the gift of God (Ps. lxxxv. 11-14; Isa. li. 5-8), rises as a sun upon them that fear God (Mal. iii. 20), and is here called everlasting, corresponding to the eternity of the Messianic kingdom (cf. ii. 44, vii. 18, 27). [Same Hebrew text] comprehends the internal and the external righteousness of the new heavens and the new earth, 2 Pet. iii. 13. This fourth expression forms the positive supplement of the first: in the place of the absolutely removed transgression is the perfected righteousness. (Biblical Commentary on The Old Testament, Keil And Delitzsch (1884), on Chap. IX. 24-27, page 343)

29

What is your understanding of the terms "Ransom" and "Redeem"?

by Doug Mason in

with respect to christ being the "redeemer" and of having "paid the ransom", i would like to know:.

(1) what is your technical understanding of each term?.

(2) what is the watchtower's understanding of each term?.

Doug Mason

Thank you for your help. I have saved them to my computer and I will work through them.

The early Church taught that Jesus "redeemed" humankind from Satan and similarly that the "Ransom" was a payment made to Satan in order to obtain the release of his captives. These understandings are no longer accepted.

So I wondered how people today and the Watchtower explained this payment of a "redemption" or of a "ransom". The latter is of course especially significant for the Watchtower and it has been the cause of major rifts in the past.

While it is helpful to access references such as dictionaries, I wonder whether people have thought through these personally. In other words, how I do "redeem" something and how do I pay a "ransom"? Are these the practices of 2000 years ago?

Doug

29

What is your understanding of the terms "Ransom" and "Redeem"?

by Doug Mason in

with respect to christ being the "redeemer" and of having "paid the ransom", i would like to know:.

(1) what is your technical understanding of each term?.

(2) what is the watchtower's understanding of each term?.

Doug Mason

With respect to Christ being the "Redeemer" and of having "paid the Ransom", I would like to know:

(1) What is your technical understanding of each term?

(2) What is the Watchtower's understanding of each term?

I am not looking for the list of verses that employ each term. I want to know how one "redeems" and how one "pays a ransom" and how Christ achieved these.

Thanks,

Doug